tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post3095391733936776972..comments2024-03-05T15:04:47.678-08:00Comments on Dominican Liturgy: St. Martin de Porres, DonatusFr. Augustine Thompson, O.P.http://www.blogger.com/profile/13650004591673135663noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-54536340778406039032024-03-05T15:04:47.678-08:002024-03-05T15:04:47.678-08:00Thank you for this article. I am currently researc...Thank you for this article. I am currently researching the figures in Fra Angelico's panels of the Blessed Dominicans and I had been wondering about the different habits worn by the male figures in the bottom row of each panel. I wonder if the leftmost figure in the left panel is a lay brother and the rightmost figures in the right panel are actually donati? Do you have any insight into this? <br />Right panel: https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/fra-angelico-the-dominican-blessed-1<br />Left panel: https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/fra-angelico-the-dominican-blessedAthaliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12675405461390323404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-20060636976212115782023-02-15T23:17:53.621-08:002023-02-15T23:17:53.621-08:00Sorry for the ignorance but would have been differ...Sorry for the ignorance but would have been different at the time for a lay brother vs a professed third order living in the community. Who they essentially be loving the same lives just a manner of rank or is there a difference in their way of living or obligations. John Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-39091211123110037082020-03-13T16:40:11.657-07:002020-03-13T16:40:11.657-07:00Dear Dismas,
Sorry this is so late.
The archivi...Dear Dismas,<br /><br />Sorry this is so late. <br /><br />The archivist is wrong. Martin signed the book of professions, because he made a public profession. But it does not say he professed as a "frater"---it says that he "made an oblation of himself." (In Spanish, but I don't have the text to hand.) That is the formula for an donado, not a conversus.Fr. Augustine Thompson, O.P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13650004591673135663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-75423517335995871872019-11-03T10:39:47.123-08:002019-11-03T10:39:47.123-08:00I was in Lima last year for an international confe...I was in Lima last year for an international conference on Shrines of the Dominican Order, and had an opportunity to speak with the current friar who's basically the historian-archivist for the Province of Peru.<br /><br />He told me that Martin did make vows as a lay/cooperator brother. He claimed to have the records. When I asked him about the discrepancy on the habit he wore, he simply shrugged and said, "Are YOU going to tell St. Martin what to wear?"<br /><br />So take that as you will.Fr. Dismas Sayre, O.P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01238944917264745402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-19409696967914670082016-10-24T09:02:06.949-07:002016-10-24T09:02:06.949-07:00Is there a difference other than in name? Was the...Is there a difference other than in name? Was there some difference in the requirements to say the Holy Office, ownership of personal property, or to profess vows of one degree or another., and if so what was the difference. Having read the post, it seems a difference in name only. Is the nature of the state in which he was admitted to your order related to the accidents of his birth. In comparison, the SMOM in past times, men of common birth would only be allowed to join as professed members in the rank of Donatus, which still survives as a professed vocation, at least in statute, to this day. <br /><br />One author I had read stated clearly that it was his race that precluded him from being admitted to Holy Orders, or his legitimacy. Of course, there is no mention of his believing he had or was called to a priestly vocation, so the author did not establish that there was ever an instance in which such presumed injustice might have occurred. But my initial thought upon reading the work in question was that it St. Martin's work as a surgeon that would have prevented the consecration of his hands to service at the altar. This leads me to wonder if perhaps a canon was in place debarring surgeons' and obstercians from religious life at the time analogous to that canon debarring them from Holy Orders. Here again, comparison might be made to the Order of Malta, engaged in that time in its nursing vocation, as ever it has been, which provides in its statues arround this time for the presence in its Hospital in Valletta of a surgeon and what amount to surgeons in training (barbieri, I think was the term used), who do not seem to be members of the order. <br /><br />I had once spoken to missionary priest who was given a dispensation to be a surgeon during the time when the 1917 Code of Canon Law was in place, who said the prohibition was from the possibility of contact of the surgeon's hands with blood or lochia or both, which would render the surgeon ritually unfit for service at the altar in direct imitation of the Old Testament prohibition of the those becoming ritually unclean through such contact from entering the precints of the Temple, whether they were priest or no. <br /><br />So while he, in acknowledgement of his great piety, may have been given the dignity of the habit even as some non-espicopal prelates are given the dignity to wear pontificals, maybe it was his work in caring for the wounds of the malades of Lima that prevented his entering into the state of being a conversus, since his presence in choir might in some way profane (in the truest sense of the word, I suppose) the action of the choir imitating Christ in the Temple Not Built by Human Hands in their recitation of the Divine Office. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14050224053249334433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-24455563580883902172016-10-21T13:55:18.721-07:002016-10-21T13:55:18.721-07:00If you agree, I'd like to translate into Itali...If you agree, I'd like to translate into Italian.<br /><br />Edoardo Mattei<br />Lay Dominican<br />Provincia Romana - Provincia di Santa Caterina da Siena (Italy Center)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03982740333872262654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-10995401108250352792016-09-05T10:44:23.536-07:002016-09-05T10:44:23.536-07:00You are most welcome. Thank you for the observati...You are most welcome. Thank you for the observations. I hope, when I have finished the book I am writing on the history of the Dominican lay brothers to begin one on the history of the 3d Order / Dominican laity. I have given a talk on the current status of studies on the penitents here:<br /><br />http://livestream.com/dspt/earlylaydominicansFr. Augustine Thompson, O.P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13650004591673135663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-16561547300213211262016-09-05T02:48:27.856-07:002016-09-05T02:48:27.856-07:00Thank you very much for your answer.Thank you very much for your answer.iantonbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138908822149125218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-2701998511008593032016-09-04T09:37:55.218-07:002016-09-04T09:37:55.218-07:00Actually, those texts of the rule indicate just th...Actually, those texts of the rule indicate just the opposite of how you read it. NOrmally Dominican penitents were widows (the most common) or unmarried (e.g. Catherine of Siena, Cattherine de' Ricci and many many others) and so chastity was not an issue. Married women (and married men--very rare before 1800) could only become penitents with permission of their spouses because chastity was required for the status and a living spouse had a right to the "marriage debt." I am glad to see that you know that Munio did not write the Rule. It was composed about 1400 and approved by the pope only in 1405. For the sake of readers, this was proven about ten years ago by Prof. Maiju Lehmijoki-Gardner (see her book "Dominican Penitent Women".<br /><br />Also note that the Rule speaks of a "publicum instrumentum," not a "profession." This is because, since the 1200s, one became a pentitent by making a legal declaration before a notary, not by professing vows publicly. Penitents made their "vows" privately before their confessor. Canon law did and still does require that a spouse get the other spouse,s consent before making a vow of chastity (even private). But no chastity, then no possible status as a third-order penitent, at least until after the French Revolution.<br /><br />Married Tertiaries who do not make a vow of chastity are an invention of the 19th century. That lack of the vow of chastity is also the reason that they do not wear habits, the way all earlier tertiaries did. Of course the celibate tertiaries did wear habits and often still do (they are "Third Order Regulars," what we call "Dominican sisters" today). Tommaso Caffarini had a big struggle to get Maria of Venice permission to become a tertiary because her abusive husband had abandoned her and they could not get him to give her permission to undertake the chastity required of penitents. Even though he didn't live with her! See "Dominican Penitent Women" on this.Fr. Augustine Thompson, O.P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13650004591673135663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-80517655164368093802016-08-26T08:40:39.021-07:002016-08-26T08:40:39.021-07:00Thank you,friar Thompson for this incredible updat...Thank you,friar Thompson for this incredible update. Warm greetings from Nigeria! <br />~Cletus Nwafor,OPAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16926513470694200810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-24868914973988732312016-08-26T08:39:47.716-07:002016-08-26T08:39:47.716-07:00Thank you,friar Thompson for this incredible updat...Thank you,friar Thompson for this incredible update. Warm greetings from Nigeria! <br />~Cletus Nwafor,OPAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16926513470694200810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-71997948037963996782016-08-03T06:10:41.042-07:002016-08-03T06:10:41.042-07:00Fr. Augustine,
Thank you for this post and your r...Fr. Augustine,<br /><br />Thank you for this post and your research. Like Saint Francis from your earlier work, these historically accurate depictions of our saints more truly bring them to life in the contemporary world.Mr. Jody Lamar (Thomas-Mary) Finklea, O.P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00185299328327542612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-12890971468943890912016-08-02T10:54:20.005-07:002016-08-02T10:54:20.005-07:00The Anglican Dominicans are reading about your wor...The Anglican Dominicans are reading about your work with great interest!<br />Blessings and peace,<br />Mo. Patti Hale, OPASisterPattihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12200161441582864535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-36177916137268435272016-08-01T11:04:17.700-07:002016-08-01T11:04:17.700-07:00Dear Fr. Augustine,
This is FASCINATING!!! I wis...Dear Fr. Augustine,<br /><br />This is FASCINATING!!! I wish you would produce more information from your research about early, daily OP life that dealt with minutiae which has been forgotten in more recent years. That Tertiaries promised to be celibate makes perfect sense to me now, especially in light of much of what I've read about Third Order communities which lived in proximity to First and Second Order houses. I wondered why "spouses" were never mentioned, and now I know!<br /><br />Here's a question which I have always been troubled by: While I know that 3rd Order "Regular" communities of men have existed in the past, such as Lacordaire's teaching community, why is it that the First Order seems so resistant to the development of 3rd Order Regular communities of men today? Apart from the community of Tertiary friars in the Phillipines who work among lepers, I am familiar with no successful attempts which have been supported by the Order in modern times.<br /><br />Thanks for your work!<br />fr. Martin Farrell, op<br />Ottawa OP Community<br />OntarioFr. Martin, ophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917184710778767966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-51370654092558104732016-07-31T13:59:17.629-07:002016-07-31T13:59:17.629-07:00This is fascinating -- thank you for sharing!This is fascinating -- thank you for sharing!Emily Theresehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02066185560438648912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-45281292175059681832016-07-31T06:12:29.336-07:002016-07-31T06:12:29.336-07:00I thought it was offered to him toward the very en...I thought it was offered to him toward the very end of his life but he refused it? <br />Before that he was "just" a tertiary living with the friars. <br />I suspect that he probably became a "lay" brother out of a common usuage not meaning cooperator brother. In the same way St. Catherine di Ricci wasn't a NUN and many cloistered beatae were not technically nuns but sisters (except there wasn't a canonical category back then of sister) but they looked like it! For example, we here at Summit weren't nuns until 1953 but we followed the "2nd Order" Rule and looked like nuns. <br />This is awesome research! We look forward to your new book! <br /><br />Benvenutahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02874065109753577122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-15656543862959264632016-07-30T17:55:30.635-07:002016-07-30T17:55:30.635-07:00Dear Brother Dominic,
No, Juan Massias was still ...Dear Brother Dominic,<br /><br />No, Juan Massias was still alive, so there is, obviously, no obituary in 1642. And there is not reason to believe that the two other brothers with obituaries in 1642 were anything but "conversi" or lay brothers. My point was that the Peru friars knew the difference between a "conversus" (lay brother) and a "donatus" (member of the third order living in community with the friars).Fr. Augustine Thompson, O.P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13650004591673135663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-28414316659884807802016-07-30T14:20:00.600-07:002016-07-30T14:20:00.600-07:00Is Juan Macias one of the other "holy Friars&...Is Juan Macias one of the other "holy Friars" similarly misnamed?Dominic McManus, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15585698536267138563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3681724653679910870.post-21089492304093976852016-07-30T11:50:41.352-07:002016-07-30T11:50:41.352-07:00Fascinating... thank you Augustine!Fascinating... thank you Augustine!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17929893975061075750noreply@blogger.com